Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

I've got to tell you, based upon what Howard is saying, the idea that this individual, Kober, allegedly knew where to go in this house because as you well know, you stood outside that house, Nancy. It's a very confusing layout.

I think that probably if she had, in fact, spoken, she would have just become an obstacle to him that he's trying to defeat to make his way to that door so he can get out and get in that car and leave.

I think that when you think about progression, we talk about in forensics a commingling of evidence. And from the start with this case and you're trying to tie in a timeline, you're going to have commingled blood evidence that you're going to find at the scene.

I think probably the biggest thing that this jury is going to see in this case when they see these crime scene images, Nancy, is that both of these locations, both of these rooms are going to be bathed in a lot of blood evidence.

And the big question is how did he clear that house without transferring a bunch of blood evidence to either other locations in that house or certainly within the confines of that car? How did he escape that without having blood all over the place at his apartment, for instance?

I took that drive to Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, star of a hit series, Body Bags, and most important for me right now, forensic expert and death investigator, Joe Scott.

And author of a series of books on Amazon about Jack Solo, one being Flying Solo, Top of the World.

author of a series of books on Amazon about Jack Solo, the first being Solo shot, curse of the blue stone. "Forever Solo: Knight of the Dragon," "FLYING SOLO: Top of the World", "Solo Journey: Buddha Knights a Jack Solo Mystery Novel" "Going Solo: The Gospel of Luke"

Dr. Bercotto joining us, forensic psychologist, co-creator of the Columbia Mass Murder Database and author of The New Evil, Understanding the Emergence of Modern Violent Crime.

Joining me, forensic psychologist who was the co-creator of the Columbia mass murder database Dr. Gary Bricado.

To Dr. Gary Bricotto, clinical forensic psychologist, author of The New Evil, Understanding the Emergence of Modern Violent Crime.

Dr. Gary Bricotto is with us, clinical psychologist and author of The New Evil, Understanding the Emergence of Modern Violent Crime.

So obviously with these kind of events, the first thing that has to happen is a ruling out of a simpler explanation, like an accident falling into water or things like that.

But once that's been ruled out and a lot of time has gone by, obviously our thoughts have to begin to move in the direction of an abduction.

And one thing that I would point out right away is that people who abduct children really seem to fall into two broad buckets.

And so that what I think you're looking for is probably somebody who doesn't live very far from that area and who most likely has had a history consistent with this kind of thing.

And then to Dr. Gary Percato, clinical psychologist, author of The New Evil, Understanding the Emergence of Modern Violent Crime. Now that is a read.

She's a high profile lawyer out of Seattle joining us. The familiarity, like think about it. What if you had a dead body in your trunk?

With me also are two incredible guests. Number one, my friend, my longtime friend, Ann Bremner. She is a very high profile trial lawyer out of the Seattle jurisdiction. She is a legal analyst and she is author of Justice in the Age of Judgment.

Anne Bremner - Trial Lawyer, Legal Analyst, & Author: "Justice in the Age of Judgment;" Twitter: @annembremner; Instagram: @Anne_Bremner

Ann Bremner, author of Justice in the Age of Judgment.

okay if you want to know more about that go to mark Mirabello dot-com THE ODIN BROTHERHOOD okay

now the defense is claiming that Odinist actually murdered Libby and Abby and they're pointing toward what they claim are runes which I believe are rocks but I'm not really sure lying on the body or around the body what are runes and what do they have to do with the pagan religion of Odinism

I'm now a professor of emeritus which is retired in a great honor I would get answering your question the Vikings used the runes and oddly enough they seem to resemble a Truscan writing style from northern Italy we're not certain of the origin but the ruins were designed to be carved into wood bone and stone

I want to go back to Mirabella dr. Mark Mirabello literally wrote the book on THE ODIN BROTHERHOOD as fantastical as this defense theory may sound they're actually attaching it to real people

I want to go back to Dr. Mark Mirabello professor emeritus of history Shawnee State University author of THE ODIN BROTHERHOOD you just explained how unlike Dexter there is no ritual at all regarding the murders of these two little girls Abby and Libby what else strikes you as proof this was not some sort of a ritualistic killer

He is the author of THE ODIN BROTHERHOOD at markmirabello.com.

Mark Mirabello former professor history Shawnee State University and author of THE ODIN BROTHERHOOD okay if you want to know more about that go to mark Mirabello dot-com THE ODIN BROTHERHOOD.

author of THE ODIN BROTHERHOOD you just explained how unlike Dexter there is no ritual at all regarding the murders of these two little girls Abby and Libby.

Joining me Dr. Jeff Kalashevsky, forensic psychologist, author of Dark Sides.

First of all, joining us, Dr. Jeff Kalachewski, forensic psychologist, author of Dark Sides.

Rachel D Fisher joining me, special guest, registered nurse sex assault nurse examiner. She's an expert witness. She's offered author of Taking Back The Pen. And you can find her at legal are in consult.org.

And that is where Rachel D. Fisher comes in, registered nurse, sex assault nurse examiner, S-A-N-E expert witness, private investigator, author of Taking Back The Pen, forensic nursing consulting and education.

He's also the author of Kill The Story.

To John Lucy joining us, our renowned journalist, PennLive.com and the Patriot News of Harrisburg, author of Kill The Story.

and the Patriot News of Harrisburg, also the author of Kill The Story. John, thank you for being with us.

I remember Bob Innis when I was reading every single one of the Harry Potter books to the children and I don't know how much you know about that I sadly know everything there is to know but Voldemort the antagonist murdered people and every time he murdered someone his soul would split that causes your soul to split and I remember reading that to the children you know editing out parts I thought were really really scary and they said why does your soul split in half when you kill somebody and I said because it's the worst thing in the world in the universe to take away God's most precious gift and that is your life

the one that lived, to steal a phrase from Harry Potter, the girl who lived.

I'm speaking with Kara Swisher about her memoir Burn Book, A Tech Love Story.

I'm speaking with Kara Swisher about her memoir Burn Book, a tech love story. I love the tech, not the people. I love the possibilities of technology. I really did believe and I probably was from being gay now that I think about it. It's like we can come out and meet each other now.

we're in the book of Genesis where, you know, God calls out to Cain and says, you know, tells Cain, you know, your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground.

This is book of Genesis stuff, brother killing brother over you know.

You've heard of Gone Girl. What about Gone Goat?

She was kind of a Gone Girl style plot.

Nobody homicide cases, a practical guide to investigating, prosecuting and winning cases when the victim is missing.

You're the author. You wrote the book on nobody cases. That's the name of it.

Ted Dubias joining us out of D.C., former assistant U.S. attorney in D.C. and author of Nobody Homicide Cases,

Now I'm not coming at this from a legal angle because you and I both know we could get an excited utterances. We could get what she said to cops. We could get a lot of her hearsay comments in as evidence, but that's not going to really fly if there's a jury.

Nancy, it is very important because what you often see in No Body Homicide Cases, which of course we all hope this is not, but you often see what's called a triggering event and a court case is a classic triggering event.

You recall here there was a court hearing on May 7th where the case was going to be going forward. Now we have less than two weeks later, of course, Nikki is missing. That to me is very important.

Over 50% of No Body Murder Cases involve domestic relationships. It can be husband and wife, it can be boyfriend, girlfriend. It is very common. All of the things we're seeing here are very common in No Body Murder Cases, unfortunately.

Wendy Patrick - California Prosecutor, Author of "Why Bad Looks Good" and "Red Flags," and Host of "Today with Dr. Wendy" on KCBQ in San Diego; X: @WendyPatrickPHD

And I'm focusing on that book of yours because out of all of them I think I believe that directly impacts on this case.

Dr. Ernest Chiodo - Toxicologist, Physician, Biomedical Engineer, Attorney; Author: "Toxic Tort: Medical and Legal Elements"

Toxic Tort: Medical and Legal Elements

A lethal dose of fentanyl, something that would kill most adults, would be two milligrams. Well, what does that mean? If you have five to seven grains of salt, that is two milligrams, which is a very small amount of fentanyl. In fact, if you have a pencil, if you have a sharpened pencil and you have the tip of the pencil, you literally on the tip of the pencil pick up two milligrams. Or if you have a penny and you have Lincoln's head on the penny, two milligrams would cover just a little bit more of the nose on the penny. So it's a very small amount. Obviously, five times that is say 10 milligrams. Still also a very small amount. Because fentanyl is a very powerful, powerful drug.

Andrew Stoltman high-profile lawyer out of Chicago, a law professor at Northwestern University and co-author of an incredible book Waging War on Wall Street.

Well if you can take on a bank okay I need to talk to you off camera.

Coauthor of the book Waging War on Wall Street.

You can find them at dalecarsonlaw.com.

And author of Arrest Proof Yourself.

The mother of three self-published her children's book Are You With Me? in the months before her arrest in May of last year. The book is about a dying father who, after receiving angel wings, is keeping watch over his small son. Prosecutors may use the book to paint Eric Richens' death as a premeditated murder with a sophisticated cover-up.

Stacey, thank you for being with us.

You know, Stacey, after covering so many cases about bullies where the victim actually the child victim actually commits suicide.

I don't believe it.

Well, I mean, I've seen many cases where things have happened at the school and the school later on goes on to say we were unaware of it.

Now, certainly there were aware of it.