The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast

I just finished Lawrence Krauss' book Edge of Knowledge which so like bleeding edge physics and science and philosophy your podcasts

Here watch the documentary, Crumb.

I love Crumb.

How about Crumb?

Yeah.

Robert Crumb.

Robert Crumb.

Well, Crumb, you know, what Crumb did reminds me a bit of what you did because he took refuge in his arty. And that really saved him.

We discuss her new landmark book, This Is Your Brain on Birth Control, The Surprising Science of Women, Hormones, and the Law of Unintended Consequences.

And that's become a trope and a satirical, and what would, a satirical cliche.

And so I spent most of my career trying to understand behavior using the lens of Darwin's theory of evolution by selection.

I think it's one of the flaws in Dawkins thinking, for example, is that you can reduce reproduction to sex, but that's foolish because human beings have a high investment strategy in relationship to the propagation of their children.

I don't know if the evolutionary biologists have been able to calculate out the relationship between establishing a reciprocal relationship with a great hunter or great warrior versus the costs of men competing to elevate a given man to the highest possible position.

He wrote a book by Tatanya McGrath and yeah she's the worst of the woke feminist anyways he started this group called comedy unleashed

And in the intervening period of time, I've read one of your books, the one that's more autobiographical and I'm very interested in your story.

I brought a book to create factor right and homo sapiens are born with some greed without homo sapiens cannot access and but greed after a certain thing it's the most destructive for us.

Tom Klancy wrote a book about it years ago at like I called the bear in the dragon or the dragon coming over the mountain or something all those lines the the Chinese are coming for that land and they're doing it very cleverly right now there's I think nine million people in eastern Russia three million of our illegal Chinese immigrants the Chinese are flooding into Russia they throw a bottle of vodka at the border guard and you know get let in and they're going to take that land back and that goes to this national interest Russia's national interest is not with China China look it looks that Russia is being weak as being a country they can be colonized or can be re-absorbed into China in large part and they can be dominated by Xi Jinping the Russians are proud people and then they're not and they're no longer communists they're authoritarian they're imperialists but they're not communists they've got no ideological affiliation with Beijing you know Vladimir Putin or whoever comes after him you know the one thing we know about Russians throughout history that whether there's a czar or the general secretary of the Communist Party they don't like to get a back seat to anybody as a Russian they're very proud people I don't think they're going to want to be a colony of China and so you know unfortunately what's happened is we you know I don't want to say we've pushed the Russians to China the Russians would tell you the West has pushed the Russians to China but we needed to come up with a way and we still need to come up with a way to deal with Russia that doesn't allow them to invade their neighbors doesn't allow them to invade Poland or Lithuania or Latvia or Stonia or Finland or Ukraine but that pulls them back away from the so unholy alliance that they've got with Beijing and how do you see that how do you see that how do you see that how do you see the Russians interests so what how do you see that laying itself out given that this war is devolving into well it's very difficult to get accurate representation of the situation but my understanding is that it's turned into something like a grinding stalemate with the advantage possibly shifting to the superior Russian forces now like I said I'm not I'm not confident in the information that I have but what do you see happening currently and how would you outline something approximating a productive pathway forward well look I think you're you're right in describing the situation and that's what I said the Ukrainians are very tough and very savvy at the outset of the invasion and they they really dealt the Russians a bloody bloody nose one of the reasons did that was that because we got them in the Trump administration we got him 600 javelin missiles anti tank missiles there were highly effective at blunting those three armored accesses that came into Ukraine and you know up until that time you know when I was national scared advisor we were having a heck of a time getting the Pentagon to even deliver them to those javelins to sort of Ukraine because there were people in the Secretary of Defense's office that didn't want to provoke Putin it goes back this whole theory that if we give the if we help the Ukrainians will provoke Putin so after after Russia invaded Ukraine the first time in 2014 and took Crimea and took parts of the Donbass you know remember the Obama administration said we're gonna aid Ukraine we said I'm Gatorade and MREs and blankets and you know a few night vision goggles and what they needed you know was it's like so those lens we said this time when they offered to send me a helicopter he said I don't need a helicopter I don't need a ride I need I need ammunition and we we got him the ammunition to blunt the initial invasion they got more from the Biden administration I credit the Biden administration for doing that uh when it came time but the Russians suffered but what I've told people is the Russians aren't stupid these are very smart people these are technical people they've got engineers and scientists and doctors and you musicians I mean this is a culture that's they got sputniked at space before we did uh so don't count the Russians out because they're not dumb and and if you look at Russia's wars whether it was Sweden or France with Napoleon or Germany with Hitler the Russians always do poorly at the outset and then because they're willing to throw men in material into the meek grinder in a way that we can't do in the West because the political constraints aren't on them they can they can go through a hundred thousand dead young men without losing the presidency that wouldn't work here in the West it wouldn't work in Canada or America but it works in Russia and they use it to their advantage stall and did it Putin's doing it now and and they're between their smarts and their their cruelty to their own people you know they're gonna turn things around I think they've started to do that and so it's a uh you know we're in a very very difficult situation for the Ukrainians so now the question the big question and I look I don't have the answer on this Jordan but we need to figure it out as how do we how do we resolve the situation so the Ukrainians have a safe and secure country uh get most of their territory back if not all of it uh in the war give them security guarantees and the Ukrainians are gonna be skeptical of those guarantees because they had the security guarantees from the US and Britain and Russia and France and the Budapest Accords and you know that didn't didn't help them out right that was a precondition for them giving up their nuclear weapons right right which which by the way now is this this whole thing is another you know argue that for any country that's thinking about getting a nuke is get a nuke because you know you that's the only one that's the only real way you can defend yourself against a great power so it makes non-proliferation tougher uh and and and counter-proliferation tougher so the question is how do we get the Ukrainians what they need uh and they're the security they need and how do we get the Russians to to back off and pull them away from the Chinese and more integrated more with the EU and the West and and try and make about responsible stakeholder player well especially because we need much of what they have to offer I mean the the world can't do as far as I can tell without Russia slash Ukraine natural resources on the particularly with regard to fossil fuels but also with regard to well the ammonia that those fossil fuels produce that's a crucial issue but also the amount of edible grain that both of those states produce and of course that's not the their only contribution to the world's economy I mean it's hard to defeat a trading partner upon whose resources you're actually dependent and I mean it's terribly complex as you said I mean Ukraine has to be supported because they did give up their nuclear weapons and that's obviously a bad thing if they they give up their weapons and strip themselves naked and now they have no defense that's not a good precedent for operating in the rest of the world I mean I it doesn't look I'm speaking out of turn here but I'm going to anyways because you have to start somewhere I can't imagine the Russians ever giving up Crimea I think they'd I think they'd go back to the wall to keep Crimea with regard to the newer territories they took over their argument of course is that those territories were primarily occupied by Russian speakers who have a primary allegiance to Russia and it seems to me that that could be in principle settled by something approximating a referendum in those districts if that was something that could be established under international supervision and then to provide the Ukrainians with territorial integrity guarantees and to invite the Russians back into the Western game looks to me that something like that looks like a pathway forward and maybe I've been accused in my attitudes of being a Russia appeaser and I'm certainly not trying to do that I think I'm fairly cognizant of the dangers of the Russian enterprise overall I think that makes me more appreciative in some ways of Putin than other people might be because my sense is that by historical standards Putin is by no means the worst and most reprehensible leader that the Russians have ever managed to produce and so you know it might be lovely to consider what the country would be like in his absence but yeah so it's a low bar for him it did that that's for sure it's it's as low a bar as has ever been established anywhere with the possible exception of the Chinese so so anyways I mean those are thoughts about what a potential move towards solution might approximate in what do you think of those thoughts and what do you think there is as an alternative I mean the Ukrainian well I think are going to become increasingly desperate and that also brings up the terrible danger of having the West dragged in you know which is the most likely outcome dragged in by their sleeve into this terrible monstrous machine well look I think a lot of good points and let me start about the first thing you mentioned about the trading partner look if Russia could get integrated like it was on its way to into the West selling oil and gas and agricultural goods and the agricultural goods are they may not be that expensive they may not be considered you know cash crops or or the same as diamonds or platinum oil and gas but that agricultural output of Ukraine and Russian southern Russia that's a bread basket for Africa for Southeast Asia for Asia I mean without that we're we're going to face famine and it's critical that we get this grain out of Ukraine and a lot of the Russians keep trading their grain because there are so many people that will just literally die and in places like you know the Congo and Egypt another Lebanon that will have real trouble if they can't get access to it the other issue in you know Canada has something to come with Ukraine and Russia here is potash which you need for fertilizer and to grow crops on a industrial scale Canada Russia and Ukraine and the only folks that make potash it commercially viable levels they could allow for modern agriculture which has kept the world from going to famine so there are a lot of important things that you know to the world and get in this conflict resolved as far as your you know the kind of the pieces are parts to a compromise or settlement or a cord that you laid out like I think those were things that people are talking about around the world the Ukrainians are smart they're thinking about those issues the Russians are thinking about them but I think what's happened is there hasn't been you can't get into negotiation if you can't get the two people the two parties to the table and right now Ukraine's not ready to come to the table and Russia's not ready to come to the table and I think that the other part of that is we can't do the negotiations for them the West is particularly bad at negotiating for other countries and you know we're willing to yeah we saw this happen with Vietnam we saw it happen with certainly with Czechoslovakia and in Munich when Chairman and talking about these are the far away places of which we know a little about so we'll just we'll just give up the Sudayland for the Czechs and they'll be happy with it and we'll end a war and again remember that was incredibly popular in Britain when Chamberlain came home and said we had peace in our time that's now ridiculed that's mocked that wasn't at the time of the time he was met by huge crowds of the airport he came into commons the House of Commons and had a standing ovation bar five people Churchill and four of his colleagues were the only one sitting by partisan labor and well tripartisan at the time liberal labor and conservative standing ovation for Chamberlain so a piecement can be very popular for and we've got to avoid the temptation as America or the Europeans to come in and tell the Ukrainians what they have to do or negotiate a separate deal with the Russians and impose on Ukraine we've got to have the two parties if we want this to be a long lasting and we want to be stable Russian Ukraine after negotiations we can counsel the Ukrainians councilor Russians support the Ukrainians as we have been you know that's all important and that those are you know rightful roles for the EU for America and Canada and our native allies but we need to make sure that we're not trying to negotiate for someone else because that won't work and it'll end up with another conflict on the road now what leverage do you think the US has given its provision of arms to Ukraine to entice or compel which is more dangerous obviously them to the negotiating table sooner rather than later with Ukraine I mean certainly it's the diplomatic the diplomatic the economic the military support that they're getting that's huge leverage from the west on Ukraine but you don't want to use that unrighteously around justly I mean you give mine Ukraine's been invaded that war crimes have been committed in Ukraine the entire cities have been wiped out and maybe the most pernicious thing that's happened in Ukraine and I know you did a show on OUR recently and the the sound of freedom movie 100,000 Ukrainian kids have been taken out of Ukraine and sent back to Russia now I don't know if this was for sex trafficking or for my guess is the Russians were trying to improve their demographic situation because the demography of Russia is so bad that they get these kids and they incorporate them into Russian families and then it was on a thousand more Russian kids and families and fathers and that sort of thing down the road so Putin knows he's got a problem but but that's think about the parents of these kids who are kidnapped and put with other families I mean this is really dastardly you know stuff that's happening in Ukraine so we've got to support them and we've got to and we don't want to be unrighteous in the pressure that we put on them but if there comes a point whether we believe the Russians are willing to come to the table in a good faith manner and we think we could resolve the Ukraine crisis could help pull Russia away from China and we could get a long-lasting solution then we do go to the Ukrainians I think and say look we've been with you from the start we've given you hundreds of billions of dollars in aid we think we evaluate this as being a real opportunity to negotiate we'll be the brokers we're not gonna let the Chinese be the brokers that's another thing with the mistake that we made it was letting the Chinese take the take the lead in peace negotiations that that should be the US and the West job we'll sit down with you we'll be the honest brokers and we'll help try and get a deal done and look I don't know if this administration has the ability to do it for a whole number of reasons but I think a new administration whether is President Trump or potentially a santa sort of whoever it is could could come in with a clean slate and maybe lay the groundwork for that sort of negotiation but it's a it's a heck of a challenge not just not just the Ukrainians who are wearing the brunt of it and have paid the biggest price I mean we spent a lot of money but they paid the biggest price and in human sacrifice for the soldiers to say the same are the marines have been killed by the Russians and their civilians who've been killed and their children have been lost but it's it's you know it's been a sacrifice for everybody involved in the conflict including you know third-party beneficiaries of grain from Russian and Ukraine who aren't getting the grain they needed to stay healthy in Africa in the Middle East in Asia so we need to figure out how to get this thing to a resolution but I and you talked about some of the outlines of what could be a potential solution but right now I just don't see anything that's going to bring the parties to the table maybe if they Ukraine offensive stalls if you know there's a changing government here in the US if there's a changing government in Russia which I don't see happening right away you know there are there are variables that could could speed up the process you know that we don't see now but right right now things look pretty bleak all right right okay well let's close this I also wanted to talk to you about the Abraham Accords they're their current status how you evaluate them overall and how they might be extended maybe you could just start by reminding people who are watching and listening what the Abraham Accords were and what they signified and how it was that they were successfully negotiated which was somewhat of a miracle and then what you see them having produced and may still be capable of yet producing well look I think it was one of the great accomplishments of the Trump administration but I think it's an American accomplishment I don't think it's just a Trump accomplishment or you know Jared Kushner Mike Pompeo or Steve Anucci and Robert Abrane accomplishment I think it was an accomplishment for our country that we were able to use Americans influence to bring peace and it goes back to you know what we talked about earlier in the show about peace or strength a strong America is good not just for America but it's good for the world because it allows for peace to break out the Abraham Accords originally started out as a deal between the UAE the United Arab Emirates and Israel to bring peace to those two countries both strong partners of the United States both small countries but the small countries a punch way above their weight in international affairs and certainly in the region and every effort to get peace in the Middle East up until this time it had been stymied because the idea was if Israel couldn't do a deal with the Palestinians they couldn't do a deal with any other Arab country so we started out with Palestinians and we gave my proposed a great deal as the kind of neutral mediator in the deal we probably proposed a great deal with the Palestinians we had to put a lot of pressure on these rallies to accept it the Palestinians was one diplomat once said never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity miss that opportunity we were able to then have these rallies go to the UAE and say look we gave this awesome deal to the Palestinians they turned it down why are we going to why are you going to allow them to keep us from having a deal or keep us from having peace between our two countries and it took a lot of negotiations with the Saudis and because none of this would happen without Saudi approval the Saudis didn't ultimately sign the deal but had the Saudis been totally opposed to it they wouldn't have happened we did a lot of negotiations with the UAE Bahrain and we I think the parties made a courageous decision because it wasn't just a political decision to make peace it was really a physical security situation because we look at what's happened to pass leaders in the Middle East that have made peace to Dott or Rabin or you know you could end up dead very quickly and so I think it took a lot of courage from the Crown Prince Mohamed Ben Zayed from BB Netanyahu to the King of Bahrain to King Mohamed in Morocco who all entered in this peace deal and you know it was improbable it was improbable from the American side we had to pull together our whole team and you know the power that the national security adviser has isn't so much as a line you don't have line authority you can't order people to do things you can't order ambassadors to do things that's the state department this is Secretary of State you can't order generals to do things that's the you know Department of Defense and the Secretary of Defense but you can convene people and we brought together a great team of Mike Pompeo and Secretary of State and Steve Mnuchin and Jared Kushner and our team at the NSC and others we got that whole team all run on the same in the same direction the same boat which doesn't always happen in the US government unfortunately and we got the president behind it and you know we know it was a long shot I mean you know we've been counseled by very senior former officials that said don't waste your time with Middle East peace it's a it's a mirage that every administration goes for no one gets it and you waste all your time energy pursue other priorities but we thought we could get it done and and the parties took big risks to make peace the Israelis gave up you know settlements annexing settlements in the West Bank the Arab countries risk their street rising up or being upset with them there is potential terrorism for Iran or from the Palestinians but we got them together and what does it mean a number one militarily it's intelligence-wise it's a great alliance to these countries or not quite a military intelligence alliance but a partnership against Iran because Iran wants like China and Russia Iran wants to change how the world operates and they want to place themselves with their their shia ideology their end times ideology at the top of the the region in the Middle East dominate the entire Middle East and ultimately have great influence all over the world and change the way we live our lives and and this you know this Abraham Accords took a very strong UAE a strong Israel and other countries and put them together and helped them stand up to the Iranians so so number one militarily it was a and intelligence-wise it was a great deal number two economically you know that we've got the the most dynamic country in the world outside of America outside of Silicon Valley is Tel Aviv and Jerusalem and Israel the tech sector there both on the hard tech side the computers and ships the soft side with software but then the egg tech and figuring out how to make the desert blossom and and grow the food that we need and and manage the water which is you know going to be as important as oil in the future that's all coming out of this little tiny country of Israel is just blossoming but they need investment and so the UAE has almost an unlimited amount of investment capital to invest they've got a very wealthy country they've got very well established capital markets you know they're there the crossroads of trade and not just for the Middle East but for Africa and Asia so to put the UAE in their capital and their trading expertise together with the Israelis and their tech was is just a going to create an economic dynamism that you know it's talking to OnePlus 1 equals 2 it's gonna be OnePlus 1 equals like 5 the benefit it had for us as Americans is as we've pushed the Chinese out of our tech sector with using the syphias process and other tools the Chinese were starting to invest heavily in Israel because they were going to have yeah the Chinese are good at mimicking and and copying but they're not creating it innovating and so they were going to go where the innovation was happening well now what's happened is this Arab money this UAE money capital is being invested in Israeli startups and it's pushing the Chinese out of Israel which is another great benefit not like the United States so you've got this military you've got this intelligence you've got this economic benefit but the intangible is peace for peace sakes you know we always kind of look at things are in my world national security and foreign policies how do we advance American interests how do we protect ourselves how do we keep ourselves safe you know it's kind of a hard analysis but but for human beings every time I see a friend send me an Instagram photo somebody having their bat mitts for their bar mitzvah and Dubai and say isn't this great it's pretty amazing when you think about it that this just happened you know three years ago I mean September of 2020 and you've got all these Israelis kids wanting to go do their bad mitzvah their bar mitzvah and Dubai I mean how that's good for the human spirit it's good for the soul when you see when you see Emirates up on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem going to the Al-Aksamasque the Blue Mosque and making the pilgrimage to what they believe is the third most holy site in Islam and they can now go fly directly from Abu Dhabi to Jerusalem to vanguering our part and tell them even drive to Jerusalem up to the mountains and and go have their pilgrimage these are things that were just they were unheard of I mean no one would have even believed that they'd happen you know even when I was a hostage envoy and and doing work in the region I'm they you would have told me that there'd be the peace would be breaking out you know it was it was something that you wouldn't have thought possible and yet it is and so there's a human element and it's example to other places in the world that no matter how intractable the problems are it may be even Russia Ukraine you know they you can you know come up with an accord and I'm proud of the United States that we were the ones with the brokerate we didn't there was nothing we gained directly from it we gained indirectly obviously from the security and the economics and the and just the goodwill for brotherhood of mankind but this was us putting all of our political capital on the line the president taking big risk and putting his political capital on the line you know our you know the parliament's agencies don't always get along well together plain together to to put make this push and then you know again I want to give credit to the Netanyahu and and Muhammad bin Saed and King Muhammad and and you know the others that actually signed the deal and put their own lives on the line it was really quite quite an accomplishment and and I hope there's now some talk that Saudi that the Biden administration is pushing for the Saudis to join the Abraham Accords I mean putting all politics aside it would be great if Saudi join the Abraham Accords and that would be a really important and and Jake Sullivan and President Biden I wish him luck yeah because if we you know putting it like the politics of how now of course President Biden I'll get the Nobel Prize for it was President Trump did that's okay he should have gone but it clearly but it's it's look it'd be good for good for the region good for the world and good for America if Saudi joins the Abraham Accords and if Saudi does then you're going to have you know a good chance to quit no more on in other countries certainly some of them Islamic countries in Africa will join and I think you could have a real you know kind of gold rush for peace here and and change the way that and then hopefully the Palestinians come along right and get on board and have their own state and they're creative people they're smart people doctors and you know businessmen and and well educated folks the literate folks but they've been kept down by these these leaders these corrupt leaders in the Palestinian Authority or the Islamic extremists in Gaza and I think he read of the corruption and the and the extremism the Palestinians would have a chance for a tremendous future in the Middle East in a free and prosperous Middle Middle East so there's a lot of good that can that's you know we did a lot of good but there's a lot more good that can happen and I and I wish the Biden folks the Allah is a person this the next piece which is clearly Saudi Arabia look that's a really well it's very nice to be able to end on high note and and I do think there's tremendous promise in the extension of those accords I mean and and that would be a miracle of peace and a miracle of economic expansion and and man we could definitely use we could definitely use more of that some union among the people of the Abrahamic faith I know they're pushing that hard in the UAE and so that that's a hell of a thing to watch for and it's something extraordinarily hopeful so yeah good luck to the Biden administration and pursuing that if they can manage it that would be real that would be very forward looking of them and to and and also you know it would require them giving the devil his due and that would be trump in that situation but man the payoff would be so great that you know you'd hope people could lift their eyes above the internet scene conflict and and look to the long run thank you very much for talking me today um thanks for having me Jordan my honor yeah it was a pleasure it was a pleasure hearing from you and getting further educated on the with regard to the issues that you've you know been so involved in and mastered to such a degree there's lots of other things we could have talked about and having said that I'm I'm going to continue talking to Ambassador O'Brien for another half an hour on the daily wire plus side of things if those of you who are watching and listening or interested in that please join us there um we'll delve a little bit into the more autobiographical more biographical side of Ambassador O'Brien's life and so um you can join us there if you'd like to otherwise thank you very much for your time and attention here on YouTube um and thanks once again for agreeing to talk to me today is a pleasure great to be with you thank you Jordan

We discuss the difficulties in promise of genuine political dialogue, practical and psychological. The dangers of a too narrow definition of merit and accomplishment, the difference between negotiating and winning and topics related to mental health and political action outlined in his new book Lost and Broken, my journey back from chronic pain and crippling anxiety.

From this they explore the differences between cognitive and behavioral therapy, the dogmatization of nuance, the rise of "harm reduction" in the current era of identity politics, and the ideal goal of argument: it's much more than just scoring points.

His new book, "Lost and Broken: My Journey Back from Chronic Pain and Crippling Anxiety,"has just recently been released.

I went through a severe anxiety problem severe chronic I wrote a book about it which sort of outlined how I got through that when you started talking about psychotherapy I went through three and a half years psychotherapy that was enormously helpful and I think you're right your your internal mental health is going to be dictated a lot by your relationships I would say in defense of the psychotherapist out there in the world your ability to have those positive relationships has a lot to do with your own internal mind and whether or not you are psychologically stable person whether or not you've dealt with the issues in your life so just that little quick shout out to psychotherapists I think there is an important component of that

I've been attempting to bring Democrats on my podcast for several years. Congressman Smith is the first sitting house member or Senator for that matter willing to take the risk and to combat in that manner, the dangerous polarization that presently confronts us.

Actually I'm reading a book called When China Rules the World it's written in 2009 it's an assumption about how China's coming and what's it going to be like and it sort of walks through this history of you know how and it to some degree was an accident of history you know guns germs and steel right you know whatever played out this particular group of people became dominant it was white men so therefore that discrimination was the discrimination that dominated a significant chunk of the globe it's not irrelevant all right to point out that that came to pass I think it is more helpful in going all the way back and I'll close with this to your identity comment what I find most useful is when we talk about things that talk about our shared humanity as opposed to the things that make us different and of course we're different of course men are different from women of course whatever your cultural background is it's going to make you a little bit different from somebody else it's so much better when we talk about the things that we have in common and I think one of the things we have in common no matter who you are is a feeling that other people don't understand you okay I mean that's a pretty universal thing in my experience so if you want to get together and talk about what here's my experience but we shouldn't segregated it based on race or anything like that we should put humans together and say discrimination bigotry bias these can be problems you know let's talk about how we have things in common instead of how we're different so I think we could do a lot better but again the problem is and I we had this debate in the House Armed Services Committee on this year's defense bill now that the Republicans have retaken the House I was the chairman of the committee for four years when Democrats were in charge now I'm the righty member diversity equity inclusion was a huge part of debate and the debate on the right was we got to get rid of it lock stock and barrel we just got to get rid of it um I just think there's got to be a better answer I don't necessarily not necessarily I don't like the way the far left does diversity equity and inclusion but the idea that we can just say that's all good no racism here no bigotry let's just move forward and not talk about it I am at least equally troubled by

So graphing it was a mystery writer she wrote the A to Z that the Kinsey Maholam mysteries yeah she wanted more to approach you said thinking's hard work that's why most people don't do it you know I'm sort of torn between that and also a passionate belief that if we engage and take on difficult problems we get more joy out of it okay yeah that we don't have to accept the fact well let's dumb everything down because nobody wants to work hard um I just don't I don't really believe that and actually there's a professor at Yale University I think it's Dr. Santos who teaches a class on happiness um it's the it's the most highly subscribed class I'm apparently in the history of Yale and her big point is what makes us happy is to be productive but our basic instinct is to not be productive so we have we have to work work through that and I just from a you know someone like yourself who you know has much more medical background than I do you know why can't we get the human brain did to embrace that a little bit more well you take on the see complexity is a good thing not a bad thing that's what I'm trying to say

I mean that's a narrative she buys but you know she was raped when she was 11 and then she had a pretty dismal experience with someone who was supposed to mentor her in university and it left fractured and with a permanent animus against men you know and and you can see that sort of thing spiraling out of control but your mother had respect for these historical figures what was the relationship between your mother and your father like on the personal front look um

I've been reading I've been writing about the book of Exodus and I conducted a seminar with a variety of people on that book. I was reading this section the other day where the burning bush appears to Moses and it's really a compelling section because at that point Moses is outside of Egypt so he's no longer concerned with the tyranny or the Pharaoh or his strange heritage. He's gone off to this place called media. Media is media. Anyways to a foreign country it's media he's out with the media nights he's married a woman there he's taking care of his father-in-laws flocks they respect him he's got himself a life you know and it's kind of hassle free and he's wandering around near near Mount Sinai interestingly enough when something attracts his attention right and he decides to turn away from his path and to go investigate. And so to me what that story is reflecting is the fact that in our lives will be in a relatively comfortable position and something will back into us that we can decide to investigate and if we decide to investigate that will well God only knows what'll happen and that's what happens to Moses he goes off to the beaten path he goes to investigate the burning bush and the burning bush is a symbol of life and transformation at the same time right because fires a transformative element so he goes to investigate being that's life and becoming that's transformation and as he investigates it more deeply he finds that he starts to walk on sacred ground and God tells him he has to take his shoes off that's humility right and so and then as he investigates even more deeply the God of the Old Testament speaks to him and says that it's the same voice that called to Jacob and Isaac and Abraham and so this seems relevant to the issue of respect for tradition and so you could imagine imagine that there's a spirit that unites the great acts of history right it's all a manifestation of the same proper orientation towards what's highest that's represented in that story as the spirit of Yahweh and that part of what you do if you're called upon to be a leader which is of course the next thing that happens to Moses is that you bow down and have respect to that guiding spiritual principle that's operated over the entire corpus of history and so you seem to be making illusions to something like that when you said that for some reason you had a kind of intellectual or moral humility now why did you have that given the fact that you could have been you could have been inordinately proud of your own intellect I mean it was of stellar quality and you were definitely rewarded for it so how do you think that humility developed and why do you think people who are listening should give it some credence