On Being with Krista Tippett

Over dessert I shared a recurring dream of mine. I told my father that for years as long as I could remember I saw this flash of light in the night in the desert. That this image had so permeated my being that I could not venture south without seeing it again on the horizon illuminating butts and maces.

You did see it he said. Saw what? The bomb, the cloud.

We were driving home from Riverside, California you were sitting on Diane's lap she was pregnant. In fact I remember the day September 7th, 1957. We had just gotten out of the service we were driving north past Las Vegas. It was an hour or so before dawn when this explosion went off. I thought the oil tanker in front of us had blown up. We pulled over and suddenly rising from the desert floor we sighed clearly. This golden stemmed cloud, the mushroom. The sky seemed to vibrate with an eerie pink glow within a few minutes of light ash was raining on the car.

I thought you knew that he said it was a common occurrence in the fifties. It is a well-known story in the desert west, the day we bombed Utah or more accurately the years we bombed Utah.

Over dessert I shared a recurring dream of mine. I told my father that for years as long as I could remember I saw this flash of light in the night in the desert. That this image had so permeated my being that I could not venture south without seeing it again on the horizon illuminating butts and maces.

You did see it he said. Saw what? The bomb, the cloud.

We were driving home from Riverside, California you were sitting on Diane's lap she was pregnant. In fact I remember the day September 7th, 1957. We had just gotten out of the service we were driving north past Las Vegas. It was an hour or so before dawn when this explosion went off. I thought the oil tanker in front of us had blown up. We pulled over and suddenly rising from the desert floor we sighed clearly. This golden stemmed cloud, the mushroom. The sky seemed to vibrate with an eerie pink glow within a few minutes of light ash was raining on the car.

I thought you knew that he said it was a common occurrence in the fifties. It is a well-known story in the desert west, the day we bombed Utah or more accurately the years we bombed Utah.

Above ground atomic testing in Nevada took place from January 27th, 1951 through July 11th, 1962. When the atomic energy commission described the country north of the Nevada test site as virtually uninhabited desert terrain, my family and the birds at great Salt Lake were some of the virtual uninhabitants.

I found the whole new meaning in life in the founding fathers of the country and the origins of the United States and the people and also in the history as it went on.

When we speak of the idea of America, we are speaking of many interconnected ethical ideas, both metaphysical ideas that deal with ultimate reality and ethical and social ideas which altogether offered hope to the world.

America was a new and original expression in the form of a social and political experiment of ideas that have always been part of what may be called the Great Web of Truth.

It is necessary to recover this resonance, this relationship however tenuous and partial between the teachings of wisdom and the idea of America.

What are the duties that are implied by our rights? That is a question I would invite people to think about without any political agenda in their mind.

In looking forward to the moment, which is intended to terminate the career of my public life, my feelings do not permit me to suspend the deep acknowledgement of that debt of gratitude, which I owe to my beloved country.

When we speak of the idea of America, we are speaking of many interconnected ethical ideas, both metaphysical ideas that deal with ultimate reality and ethical and social ideas which altogether offered hope to the world.

With Malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right.

Americans, you boast your love of liberty, your superior civilization, and your pure Christianity, while the whole political power of the nation is solemnly pledged to support and perpetuate the enslavement of three million of your countrymen.

I say the mission of government henceforth in civilized lands is not repression alone and not authority alone, not even of law, nor the rule of the best men, but higher than the highest arbitrary rule.

I did go back and look at a book that you published together with someone else named David's in 1980. Was he related to you? Julie, no, unrelated. Okay, psychobiology of consciousness.

the tone of that is so different. It starts with basically an acknowledgement that the relationship of consciousness, the biology that there's little progress has been made.

I did go back and look at a book that you published together with someone else named David's in 1980. Was he related to you? Julie, no, unrelated. Okay, psychobiology of consciousness.

a lot of my boy, so I want to live and go on living even if it's contrary to the rules of logic, even if I do not believe in the divine order of things. The sticky young leaves are merging from their buds in the spring or dear to my heart. So is the blue sky and so are some human beings, even though I often don't know why I like them. I'll get drunk on my own emotion. I love these sticky little, I love these sticky little leaves and the blue sky.

a lot of my boy, so I want to live and go on living even if it's contrary to the rules of logic, even if I do not believe in the divine order of things. The sticky young leaves are merging from their buds in the spring or dear to my heart. So is the blue sky and so are some human beings, even though I often don't know why I like them. I'll get drunk on my own emotion. I love these sticky little, I love these sticky little leaves and the blue sky.

Well, first I'd like to back up a bit and tell you how I came to the story. I was doing a dissertation research on black and native relations in the south.

And it just so happened that after months of pouring through, especially secondary sources, I came across a footnote that said that a man named shoe boots married a black woman and this was the first black Cherokee marriage with in the Cherokee nation.

So that footnote really struck me to idea that there would be a marriage between a Cherokee man and a black woman that was recorded in the early 1800s. And he was a wealthy Cherokee man, right? I would say that in our terms he was middle class.

Okay, so he was he was solid financially, but he wasn't one of the wealthiest Cherokee slave holders who owned something like 20 or more slaves and some cases 100 or more slaves. He only had a handful of slaves. Only, I say.

So I wanted to investigate the story and find out what was going on. And as I began to investigate, I learned that footnote left out so much. And in my mind, this relationship was not what we would describe today as a marriage. This was a relationship between a grown man in his forties who went to South Carolina and either bought or treated for an adolescent black girl brought her back to the Cherokee nation and began to have children with her.

Doll was owned by a she boots, and he never freed her formally.

But it's so striking and painful about that is he's making a case for these children he's had by doll. And he basically says, I did based myself. Exactly. And head to these children and never the less than he's wanting them to be treated decently.

I was doing a dissertation research on black and native relations in the south. And I was looking for a story that I thought would help me to both understand and unravel the complexity of these relationships.

So that footnote really struck me to idea that there would be a marriage between a Cherokee man and a black woman that was recorded in the early 1800s.

This was a relationship between a grown man in his forties who went to South Carolina and either bought or treated for an adolescent black girl brought her back to the Cherokee nation and began to have children with her.

Doll was owned by a she boots, and he never freed her formally.

And he basically says, I did based myself. Exactly. And head to these children and never the less than he's wanting them to be treated decently.

And then that gets out. The work of the historian and I, the discipline of that. And I see you in places. It seems to me that at different points in your career you've rediscovered the fact that telling history is never pure that you're always coming at it from some direction.

And you being, I don't know, maybe because you do then collect so much information. You know, in a way, and not being haunted but just being very keenly aware that there would be many ways to tell the same story that you're immersing yourself in.

Well, I think I came to historical scholarship from a sideways route. I never thought of myself as becoming a historian. I only was aware that I was interested in the past and it helped a good deal of power for me personally.

And then it seemed to hold a good deal of power for my family in terms of the ways in which we defined ourselves and thought about our place and society.

So I came to this work really with a feeling that setting the past and sharing the past was about making it usable for people today. And was at the same time about being a witness.

For people in the past whose lives have been forgotten about or he suffered unjustly, they would be honored by having me and other people who do this work. We remember them.

I went to the chief van house and took a tour. And this was in the late 90s. And part of me was taken by learning about the house itself, the structure, the architecture.

I was fascinated by a number of the architectural details such as all the little tiny Cherokee roses that are carved into the moldings at the house. But at the same time, I was quite focused on the question of slavery.

And throughout that whole tour we heard nothing about slavery. And nothing about how did you know that he specifically held slaves or did you just knew that the landowner of that wealth in that time would have had slaves?

I knew that he held slaves because at that point I had been doing enough research to know about the van family.

So I took the tour and slavery was it mentioned African Americans weren't mentioned. Although the van family's wealth was mentioned.

And of course these two things are tied, they're thanks you can't separate them. The van family's wealth came from slave labor.

So but into the tour, I was having this dual experience. One, I was enjoying the house aesthetically. And at the same time, I was sort of appalled.

At the way in which this house was being celebrated as a gorgeous architectural feat. And the way in which the family's wealth was being louted. And back people's suffering was completely invisible.

What did you do? Did you say anything at that point to the people who were curating or?

I did. Well I asked a question. I asked the tour guide where slaves lived on the plantation.

And the prison who was working at the time, I had to be fair and say that she was very young. Maybe she was a college student who was working there at the summer part time. She was completely flustered as if she had never thought about the question before.

Never heard it before. And she got a walkie-talkie and radiated back to the main office to ask how she should answer the question.

The van family's wealth came from slave labor.

I knew that he held slaves because at that point I had been doing enough research to know about the van family.

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I suppose by the Mermoring Deep, I mean the living and rather disturbing being of the universe.

By the Marmuring Deep, I mean the living and rather disturbing being of the universe, what was called the deep, the dehum, the beginning of Genesis, that the spirit of God hovered over the face of the deep.

The idea that might not have been a silent deep, but it actually might have been a murmur. Or a mourmer or a moan, or something coming up from there, which in a way had to be interrupted in order for there to be speech.

By the Marmuring Deep, I mean the living and rather disturbing being of the universe, what was called the deep, the dehum, the beginning of Genesis, that the spirit of God hovered over the face of the deep.

The idea that might not have been a silent deep, but it actually might have been a murmur. Or a mourmer or a moan, or something coming up from there, which in a way had to be interrupted in order for there to be speech.

I wrote him after I finished reading the book and he said, what a beautiful book. I'm so glad you brought this out.

I wrote him after I finished reading the book and he said, what a beautiful book. I'm so glad you brought this out.

Did you see the new book that came out? That's, well, once upon a country, no. Once Upon a City in St. Louis, which is...

It's quite possible that many other Palestinian families have actually entertained or had the same kind of feelings about Jews and neighbors and so on, but maybe without expressing them. And maybe in my case you know. You write books. I just say what I feel. Maybe that's the difference.

Lately I've been rereading The Courage to Be by the 20th century Theologian philosopher Paul Tillick. It's basic message as this. We dwell in what is best in us, what is essential about ourselves and find joy in these things, in spite of the accidental and difficult parts of every life.

Lately I've been rereading The Courage to Be by the 20th century Theologian philosopher Paul Tillick. It's basic message as this. We dwell in what is best in us, what is essential about ourselves and find joy in these things, in spite of the accidental and difficult parts of every life.

We've got Grant Wacker's Heaven Below which I've always heard as an excellent book.

We've got Grant Wacker's Heaven Below which I've always heard as an excellent book.

Okay Daniel Mark Epstein sister Amy the life of Amy Semple McPherson. Yeah I think that's the one I read.

No I would recommend but I'm not a historian. You know so she's not read.

Okay Daniel Mark Epstein sister Amy the life of Amy Semple McPherson. Yeah I think that's the one I read. Okay is that would you recommend?

Oh it is okay. Okay. Very good. Yeah I'm sorry. Well that's great and that'll be concise too. Yes exactly that's the advantage.

Well and I also trust Mel to put her into context and a good way.