The author spent two and a half years working on the book and interviewed Donald Trump six times. The book delves into Trump's psyche, arguing that his main motivation is fame. The author describes how Trump was most enthusiastic discussing his time hosting "The Apprentice", and how he used the reality TV show format to guide his presidency.
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The book is called Apprentice in Wonderland. I spent the last two and a half years working on it. I interviewed Donald Trump six times for it. And it really looks into his psyche and who he is, what he's like. And I know, Adam, you were on The Apprentice with him.
He was happiest when he got to talk about what it was like hosting The Apprentice. He was energized. He was engaged. He was hyper hyped. Talked about how great it was.
He wants to make good TV but this is a fun, quick read where you really get in his head and he talks about his place in pop culture which is the thing that he loves to talk about.
It is kind of true that you don't know anything about Woodrow Wilson but you know more about Flip Wilson than Woodrow Wilson.
He does a thing he did it to me he did it when we did Marriage Ref together the Seinfeld produced show Tom Papahos he came up to me in the green room was he, I and Gloria Estefan on that day and he told me this episode was gonna be number one and it was gonna be the best episode they ever had and it was gonna crush in the ratings and I was backstage kind of going why? I mean it's me, it's Gloria Estefan it's you I don't know this is pre-Trump Trump and he went he put his hand on my back he like slapped me on the back and he goes you check those ratings tomorrow I guarantee we're number one we're gonna crush it all and this is gonna be awesome and we like walked out and for the first time really in my whole adult life I felt good like I stood up a little straight and I went maybe we are number one keep saying that my world view is what's gonna be and if you say it enough people don't fact check you don't go back the next day and say so were we not was it the best rated show ever people just assume that it was and they roll forward with it I knew it wasn't but I felt good for that moment and that's what it is and I think the other side of how the poverty and how we're oppressing this people get bummed out and they just go fuck it I wanna be number one again if we're number one or not I don't care put on a hat he doesn't let facts get in the way of what he wants to say and that's why he's such a great reality star
I think that Ivanka clearly is his favorite he talked about Ivanka I asked him actually which of your kids was best on The Apprentice and he wouldn't say and then he said Ivanka was great but I also think Ivanka loved the show because she was not known she didn't have a job right there was no she wasn't working for anyone and so she got to be on the show she got to launch her jewelry line her shoe line and she got to be president and so they were really close it's interesting because they were really close when he was host of The Apprentice and maybe not so much now given all the backlash and all the tension and all the stress that was put on the family when their father became president so it is all very really interesting but my book is an anthropological study about how Donald Trump got here how did millions of Americans believe that because of The Apprentice this guy who was in the boardroom and you didn't have the greatest experience with him but he was always very entertaining on TV and funny how did he take that and convince the American public that he could be in the Oval Office and he could deal with national security he could deal with health crises such as COVID he could deal with foreign diplomacy he could meet Kim Jong-un and he's running the White House and ran the White House like a reality show that became very clear to me the way he talked about world leaders and dictators and enemies and frenemies he took the whole template from The Apprentice and moved it into the White House and that is really really fascinating and the fact that he was able to do that I think history will look back and look at this first reality TV president that we had and talk about how important pop culture is and how powerful it is in storytelling
And I think by the way I don't think we should wholesalely dismiss somebody who wants to run the state or the city or the country like a business I'm not saying that's what we're saying Trump is doing but what I'm saying is in general I've said it for a million years I'm some business guy running like we had Rick Caruso run for governor out here I should say mayor of Los Angeles Rick Caruso is a very successful developer does commercial real estate does the Grove he's a very clean and orderly and secure and you'd let your kids run around there and when it came time to vote for mayor I was like get Rick Caruso in here and let's clean up this goddamn piece of shit town we're living in with homeless and garbage everywhere and I was like he's not a politician I'll try anybody other than the career politicians that are currently running LA into the ground so like conceptually the businessman running the state, the country as a business I'll sign off on that as a concept but I'm curious what you guys think about that I think it's well I want to hear what Rumi to me though he's a carny versus like to me, forgive me I think the best what I would most want in the president is what you get never be less than the second smartest person in every room you walk into that's what Obama and Bill Clinton were and they went into this is more fraudulent stuff like I say I hear you on the legit businessman thing Trump goes into NATO and goes why are we paying the lion's share of the NATO bill you guys aren't paying enough money you should be paying in more it's your security why are we paying for all of it that's like a business-y kind of move and he was probably right he was right about a lot of energy stuff in Europe you're going to cut off all your natural gas and oil then you're going to end up getting it from Russia and then you want us to protect you from Russia you're paying Russia you shouldn't cut that off you shouldn't go green or whatever that's business-esque I mean you can make fun of Trump all you want as a sort of clown but those are kind of business things and he's right about some of those business things so I don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater like some of those decisions are like I sit at home you're going to end up getting all your oil from Russia and then you're going to be funding their war machine thoughts?
I didn't interview Biden so I can't really speak to Biden but the thing about Trump that's interesting and the rating story that was really interesting is that he is so driven by ratings and it's an extension of the ratings become poll numbers and he kind of got convinced to run for president because he had good polling and then said he'd run and then he ended up winning and he's now in the White House and it's not really what he's good at he's good at being in a boardroom having editors rearrange his words getting to be funny getting people to like him saying you're fired having people cheer for him and so when you take away the reality TV he's still creating his own reality he has these lines that he says we're number one, we're number one, we're number one, makes people feel good but it is all sort of about the personality that he developed on that show so much of who he is on the White House is the personality he developed on the show and that was what was interesting to me spending time with him I got to see that he hadn't changed I interviewed him before he was on The Apprentice and then he went to the White House and came back and we spent a lot of time together and he hadn't changed he was still really invested in pop culture and being at the center of the conversation and I think by the way I don't think we should wholesalely dismiss somebody who wants to run the state or the city or the country like a business I'm not saying that's what we're saying Trump is doing but what I'm saying is in general I've said it for a million years I'm some business guy running like we had Rick Caruso run for governor out here I should say mayor of Los Angeles Rick Caruso is a very successful developer does commercial real estate does the Grove he's a very clean and orderly and secure and you'd let your kids run around there and when it came time to vote for mayor I was like get Rick Caruso in here and let's clean up this goddamn piece of shit town we're living in with homeless and garbage everywhere and I was like he's not a politician I'll try anybody other than the career politicians that are currently running LA into the ground so like conceptually the businessman running the state, the country as a business I'll sign off on that as a concept but I'm curious what you guys think about that I think it's well I want to hear what Rumi to me though he's a carny versus like to me, forgive me I think the best what I would most want in the president is what you get never be less than the second smartest person in every room you walk into that's what Obama and Bill Clinton were and they went into this is more fraudulent stuff like I say I hear you on the legit businessman thing Trump goes into NATO and goes why are we paying the lion's share of the NATO bill you guys aren't paying enough money you should be paying in more it's your security why are we paying for all of it that's like a business-y kind of move and he was probably right he was right about a lot of energy stuff in Europe you're going to cut off all your natural gas and oil then you're going to end up getting it from Russia and then you want us to protect you from Russia you're paying Russia you shouldn't cut that off you shouldn't go green or whatever that's business-esque I mean you can make fun of Trump all you want as a sort of clown but those are kind of business things and he's right about some of those business things so I don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater like some of those decisions are like I sit at home you're going to end up getting all your oil from Russia and then you're going to be funding their war machine thoughts?
I don't think he's a clown and someone asked me the other day is he stupid and I said absolutely not I think he's very smart he knows what he's doing but he's a performance artist and so I guess the analogy I would use is when you get on an airplane do you want the pilot to be someone who actually knows how to fly a plane or do you want someone who's an actor who can actually fly a plane and Donald Trump for most purposes is an actor he's a smart, funny, charismatic person when he wants to be I like spending time with him I thought he could be very charming he could be funny his stories were entertaining he would get off track he wouldn't remember things and then get back on track it was a rollercoaster being with him and it's very hard interviewing him because he can't stay to one story he goes from being on The Apprentice to like what word is next you don't know what word is going to come up next there's no train of thought between one subject and the next
He and I talked about that. That was actually a question he asked me over and over again. And he said that in his heart, he thought he would probably still be elected, but a lot of people around him, including his son, Eric, talked about how the show was the blueprint for the campaign.
I mean, it's not provable or disprovable and it makes sense. I mean, I don't know that you could say that, you know, carved in stone and there's no other way because there's-
It's what middle America thinks the CEO should be like. Right. If you actually sat down with a real CEO-
I had Donald Jr., I think, came on this show once. And I read his book, preparing for the interview. And in his book, it said he'd spent so much time on a construction site growing up that he could tell the difference between a sawzall and a skill saw or hypoid saw or chop saw or orbital sander just by the sound of it.
So he did grow up on a construction site or he just got super lucky, but he knew the sound of every tool. So all I'm saying is with Trump, it's easy to go, this guy's a clown.
He's not as successful as he claims. He's not as smart as he claims. He's not as tough as he claims. It's the in between that is the truth.
Apprentice in Wonderland is the name of the books and available now wherever you find finer books. I like to add the finer part. It was a part of my childhood.
